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 Post subject: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:57 pm  
Pewpewpoultry
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I've done a lot of reading about the current tier sets and their bonuses. general concensus seems to tell us that 2 Piece T8 is simply *required* at this point and the testing i've been doing myself backs that up significantly.

So here's what i want to know - How valuable is 2 piece T9 really? I understand it's benefits but it seems to me that the DPS increase with the 2 piece is negligible and can be outdone by replacing those pieces with some BiS gear instead, especially if you're using the "Conqueror's" version of T9.

I bring this up for 2 reasons:

#1. The new Onyxia helm is AMAZING and I managed to get my hands on it for our first kill. I'm *very* disappointed that I can't use it due to having to keep my tier sets active with 2 piece of each and Pauldons of the Glacial Wilds for my shoulders.

#2. I picked up Breeches of the Deepening Void on a recent Anub 25 kill. I'm ALSO disappointed that I can't equip these due to, you guessed it, keeping my tier set bonuses active.

I guess what I'm asking for in a nutshell is some serious number-crunching for the T9 2 piece bonus. Also also to see if anyone has tried going without it since it's release due to better upgrades and what kind of results you've had.

I would try this myself, but if it's an obvious "no-no" then I would want to avoid the expenses of enchanting/gemming peices that turn out to be less DPS.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:11 pm  
Pewpewpoultry
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Well im not an awesome Theory Crafter But lets say..
In a Raid Your moonfire hits for 1.5K non crit , in a raid environment you have over 50% crit chance on this spell.
This would be a dps increase of 50% on moonfire aka 750.

Think about wether the stats would be better then say that 750 dps increase.
These are just random numbers i pull out of my head except for the 50%+ crit :p.

Kinda tired as well , excuse me if my math sucked balls :)

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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:29 pm  
Godkin
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Here's the steps I would take (but am unable to at the moment):

1) Find a recent parse with or without 2T9.

2) Find what percentage of your damage Moonfire did.

3) Use the formula base_damage * (1 + crit%/100) = damage_with_crits.

3a) If you were NOT using 2T9 at the time, multiply that percentage by your fully-buffed crit chance (this number should be roughly the same as your Wrath crit chance in the parse). So if Moonfire did 8% of your damage and Wrath crit 50% of the time, 2T9 would have been a 4% DPS increase.

3b) If you WERE using 2T9 at the time, divide that percentage by your fully-buffed Moonfire crit chance (which you can pull directly from your parse). So if Moonfire did 12% of your damage and crit 50% of the time, your base damage was 8% and you experienced a 4% DPS increase from 2T9.


Note that this is not an in-depth scientific (or mathematical) analysis of gear selection. It does not take into consideration possible stat upgrades from other gear. It is simply an analysis of the 2T9 bonus, respective to YOUR DPS.

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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:46 pm  
Pewpewpoultry
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I'm playing around with it now. I bit the bullet and paid for the enchants etc. for my new gear because my curiosity is killing me. I actually equipped all the best items of my current armour collection which dropped both my T8 and T9 2 piece bonuses.

I ended up with:

+~150 SP
+2.1% crit
+102 haste rating
-T8 Bonus and T9 bonus

I tested to OOM 3 times with each configuration. Here are my results:

With 2 piece T9 and 2 Piece T8 and Galcial Wild shoulders I get a consistent 5400 DPS on a dummy.

No Tier Bonuses and Best Items I have for each spot: I did an average of about 4500 DPS with is a 900 DPS loss.

I then added a second T9 piece to get an average of about 5000 DPS, resulting in a gain of 500 from No set but still a loss(from having 2 piece of each) of about 400 DPS

I am actually lacking a the set pieces I need in order to test the 2 piece T8/0 T9 with my BiS gear but I'm thinking I will only see a nominal loss between the two and that the *quality* of the items I'm chosing to use instead will make up for the shortfalls of not having that bonus.

Either way, T8 2 piece still wins hands down and frankly, that's crap.

TL;DR? T9 needs better bonuses.


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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:58 pm  
Godkin
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Raidei wrote:
Either way, T8 2 piece still wins hands down and frankly, that's crap.

TL;DR? T9 needs better bonuses.

No. Why do people subscribe to the fallacy that higher item levels are automatically better and that higher tiers naturally have better bonuses? There is NOTHING wrong with using 2T8 in iLvl 258 content. I miss the days of Classic when one could choose between any number of sets at the "dungeon set" level. Those were good days.

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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:08 pm  
Pewpewpoultry
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Xiera wrote:
Raidei wrote:
Either way, T8 2 piece still wins hands down and frankly, that's crap.

TL;DR? T9 needs better bonuses.

No. Why do people subscribe to the fallacy that higher item levels are automatically better and that higher tiers naturally have better bonuses? There is NOTHING wrong with using 2T8 in iLvl 258 content. I miss the days of Classic when one could choose between any number of sets at the "dungeon set" level. Those were good days.


I understand the difference between item level and item quality. I also understand that some bonuses are better than others. *However*, let's say for example that Class A get's a better bonus with their Tier 9 than their Tier 8 and Class B does not, there ends up being a HUGE gap in those two class's damage output.

Are you trying to defend the fact that we have to equip INFERIOR gear to maintain our DPS? You're ok with a set bonus being so important that it completely outweighs any other change in a person's item configuration?

I'm all for making item upgrades "interesting" as Blizzard would claim they're doing, but to overpower(or underpower) a set bonus so heavily is just bad development.

I get the feeling that Moonkin were given the bonuses to their T8 to bring their DPS up to a point where it could compete in a raid environment, which actually worked. But lo' and behold, we're going to be right at the bottom of the list again as the other classes gear up around us while we're forced to stick with Tier 8.

Edit: If they even boosted the 4 piece bonus from T9 from 4% to 7% it would be a valid upgrade.

Also, Blizzard has said themselves that they don't want set bonuses to be so good or so bad that it means people won't upgrade to the new Tiers. Guess what 90% of Moonkin are doing, NOT upgrading.


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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:26 pm  
Godkin
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Raidei wrote:
Are you trying to defend the fact that we have to equip INFERIOR gear to maintain our DPS? You're ok with a set bonus being so important that it completely outweighs any other change in a person's item configuration?

Yes and yes.

Raidei wrote:
Also, Blizzard has said themselves that they don't want set bonuses to be so good or so bad that it means people won't upgrade to the new Tiers. Guess what 90% of Moonkin are doing, NOT upgrading.

Not upgrading is a valid choice, just as upgrading is. I personally feel that tier sets should be relatively equal (less stat changes, not the huge ones we're seeing), with different bonuses that give us some choice in playstyle.

4T9 isn't *that* far behind 2T8/2T9...

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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:43 pm  
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Xiera wrote:
Not upgrading is a valid choice, just as upgrading is. I personally feel that tier sets should be relatively equal (less stat changes, not the huge ones we're seeing), with different bonuses that give us some choice in playstyle.

4T9 isn't *that* far behind 2T8/2T9...



From my experience it hasn't been very valid. I lost at least 500 DPS by upgrading to 4 piece T9 as well as dropping from consistently being 4-5 on DPS charts to being lucky if I got to the #10 spot. The first night I switched I just chalked it up to having a bad night, but I did it for a full week of raiding and couldn't believe how bad it was. My raid leader even asked if I was feeling ok.

For me it was a hugely significant change, in Raids and on target dummies.


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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:06 pm  
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I use the 4 piece tier 9 (as of last night, and yes, just the lowly ilvl 232 gear) with a motley assortment of gear I've scrounged together, and with my current gear, and my training dummy to oom testing, the 4 piece tier 9 actually performed 500dps on average better than the 2t9 2t8. There are a lot of factors at play besides just the tier bonus. Depending upon your crit, haste, amount of movement, total spell power, Dot maintenance efficiency, etc., there is no clear cut solution for all boomkins. Both gear loadouts have their place, and are actually pretty close depending upon other gear, player style, and skill.


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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:50 pm  
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Xiera wrote:
Raidei wrote:
Are you trying to defend the fact that we have to equip INFERIOR gear to maintain our DPS? You're ok with a set bonus being so important that it completely outweighs any other change in a person's item configuration?

Yes and yes.

Raidei wrote:
Also, Blizzard has said themselves that they don't want set bonuses to be so good or so bad that it means people won't upgrade to the new Tiers. Guess what 90% of Moonkin are doing, NOT upgrading.

Not upgrading is a valid choice, just as upgrading is. I personally feel that tier sets should be relatively equal (less stat changes, not the huge ones we're seeing), with different bonuses that give us some choice in playstyle.

4T9 isn't *that* far behind 2T8/2T9...


I get what you mean, Xiera, and I would not mind this approach to teir sets either. I think it would be great, but the fact is that it is not the way they are currently designed. As far as I know, we are the only class/spec who has a 4t9 bonus so terrible that a split set tier armor is suprerior (correct me if I'm wrong, there).

I wouldn't mind it if everyone had teir armors that were of near equal value, but when we are the only ones, basic logic suggests we got a raw deal on t9 or too sweet a deal on t8. Our dps was not crazy at t8 level, so I do not believe we were OP then, so I can only conclude that we got short-shrifted on t9. Our 4t9 bonus, should have been categorically better than 2t8, 2t9 if we were geared and balanced correctly with other classes.

If the game were designed in the manner you suggest for all classes, Xiera, I would not have a problem, but I do not think it is at all (at least not since pre-TBC perhaps).


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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:45 am  
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Ok, I am going to weigh in on this from a different angle entirely.

DPS CONCERNS ASIDE... having the latest Tier gear and the highest iLevel gear is a status thing. Players like to pride themselves on having the latest and greatest gear to use and show off. This is human nature and it adds a certain aspect to the game which we players pride ourselves on. It gives us something to continuously shoot for and play for and makes the game more fun to win these "trophies".

When blizzard designs something that penalizes us from using the latest and greatest gear it takes away a little bit from the game since players instinctively WANT to use the latest and greatest simply because it is there.

If our Tier 2 was designed to be the best set out there forever because the set bonuses were just that uber and we were precluded from ever upgrading to new tier gear ... most of us would end up switching classes since who wants to continuously wear old gear forever?! ... it defies the point of creating new tier sets. Why create what cant be used?

I have personally switched over to using the 4pc T9 currently... NOT BECAUSE IT IS A DPS UPGRADE... its not. I simply did not want to continue to use the 2pcT8. From my experience in the two weeks that I have been using it, I have noticed an approximate dps loss of only about 1 or 2%...it was not hugely significant but I wanted to have the latest set and the latest look equipped because of the achievement of it.

Even in the 4pcT9, I can still break 7k dps and have even hit as high as 7.5k on completely standstill fights. Its not the end of the world to use 4pcT9 but its just not an upgrade...which is very unfortunate for the status aspect.

Blizzard does need to take the status aspect and the "trophy" aspect into account when they create new tier sets. It is very much part of the game for all of us and is clearly very important. If it werent, fewer of us would be complaining. But it is clearly important to all of us and Blizzard should account for it.

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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:48 am  
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I have yet to look at *every* other DPS class's set bonuses. I can speak for feral DPS though -- their 4T9 bonus (5% increased chance to crit for FB and Rip) is extremely underpowered. A good feral should already be over 50% crit pre-buffs, so each percent increase is actually diminished. Their 2T8 bonus, on the other hand, gives their DoTs a chance to proc Omen of Clarity (or maybe just enter the Clearcasting state -- not sure if it works if they don't have Omen, but they should have it anyways). So our feral brethren are in the same boat as we are.

For mages, their 4T9 seems to be a side-grade bonus-wise from 2T8. Stats probably push it in favor of 4T9 if the comparison is 4T9 versus 2T8/2T9. For fire mages in particular, however, 4T8 is probably better than any other combination they can come up with. Arcane is faced with the 4T9 versus 2T8/2T9 dilemma. Frost is probably best suited by 2T8/2T9, but I haven't looked into this and few people even raid as frost.

Note that I haven't looked at the iLvl 258 stats for ferals or mages, so I can't speak to that, but from iLvl 245 and set bonuses, that's how I see things playing out for those classes.

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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:33 am  
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Its going to the point where you either take the 245 4pc t9 or don't. Its not like blizzard has a gun to your head. Even though the set bonuses are the first thing we look at, you also have to look at the upgrade in stats. What do you gain, what do you lose? What items are you able to switch around to max your stats as best as possible.

While I still use the 2/2, I am already enchanting my last piece of t9 (245..258 is coming later) and will be using it. I feel I do good enough damage that if I completely lose out on dps, I rather have it at my own accord then feel I was being carried by a set bonus.

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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:23 am  
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Some of you guys are looking at this from a very strange perspective, and in my opinion have very unrealistic expectations.

A History of 2T8

The first version of 2T8 was a 6% increase to your Eclipse buffs when the eclipse buffs were mutually exclusive. Math that I and a couple of other people did showed that it was extremely inferior to 4T7 and suggested that Blizzard buff it to 15% to make it competetive. When Blizzard buffed it as we suggested it became a good set bonus that increased Moonkin DPS by about 3% give or take. In patch 3.2 Eclipse was buffed so that the two Eclipse buffs were no longer mutually exclusive, and you could proc one while the other was on cooldown. Not only was this a significant buff to Eclipse, but it was also a significant buff to 2T8. This increased the value of 2T8 so that the set bonus provided about a 6% DPS increase. This is much larger then most other Set Bonuses in the history of the game and many theorycrafters including myself expected 2T8 to be nerfed. It was not.

2T8 vs 4T9: A different perspective

Several of you have said something to the affect of "4T9 sucks. Blizzard is screwing us." I completely disagree.

4T9 is not a bad set bonus. My calculations value it at about a 2.5% DPS increase. Looking at prior moonkin set bonuses and the set bonuses of other classes, Set Bonuses tend to be worth somewhere between 2% and 4%. 4T9 is on the lower end of that scale, but a 2.5% DPS increase is not something to brush off. It's much more significant than most people think.

2T8. on the other hand, is a bad set bonus. Try and understand what I'm saying before you flame me. 2T8 is obviously a very strong set bonus, but it is an outlier. The reason we don't move from 2T8 to 4T9 isn't because 4T9 is weak, but because 2T8 is strong.

The reality of the situation is that Blizzard is not going to increase the value of Set Bonuses with each tier of content. If they did that at some point only the set bonuses would matter. The trick is to try and maintain the value of set bonuses from Tier to Tier to make for an easy transition, without making the other factors of our DPS meaningless.

Therefore, every time you say "4T9 is weak" or "buff 4T9", what blizzard probably hears is "2T8 is too strong" or "Nerf 2T8."

Myth: 2T8 was made to Make Moonkin Competitive

It seems to be a popular opinion that blizzard purposely used 2T8 to make Moonkin competetive with other classes in terms of DPS. Personally I think the suggestion is ludicrous. Why would Blizzard balance any class using a temporary set bonus? It doesn't make sense. To maintain the buff they would have to continue giving that class over powered set bonuses. This would in turn create expectations of what a set bonus should be worth, and the other classes would get up set that one classes set bonuses were always significantly better then their own.

If Blizzard feels the need to balance a class they are going to do so with more permanent changes like having Spirit provide Spell Power, or changing Eclipse so that the buffs are not mutually exclusive.

TL:DR

Like everyone, I would love it if 4T9 was better. I would love it if all moonkin bonuses and abilities were better. I would love it if Moonkin were OP for once in their lives, but that is not good game design. No one likes to hear it but 4T9 is probably closer to what a set bonuses should be then 2T8. If you keep asking for a change to be made, don't be surprised when that change happens on the opposite side of the equation.

The OP question: 2T9

My calculations value 2T9 at about a 4% DPS increase when you combine it with Imp MF.

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Last edited by Graylo on Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: T9, T8 and lack thereof; A Theorycraft.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:24 am  
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yeah I'll probably switch to 4pc T9 i245 eventually but I was only in a hurry to get my 2pc T9. I haven't been bidding on trophies since I got my second and don't plan on starting to bid again until most people who really want their T9 have them. But I also clear ToGC 10 each week and we get the tribute chest and trophies each week... I'll likely end up snagging some of them soon just so I can play around with 4pc T9. I do wish it was more of an upgrade over 2pc T8/T9 but I'm not overly bothered by it.

EDIT: Graylo's post came up as I was writing mine. Fully agree with Graylo. Have some perspective on what 2pc T8 started as and what changes have occured since it's introduction.


Last edited by Quota on Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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