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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:31 pm  
Boomkin
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Graylo wrote:
First of all, I don't know if you've seen the results of my model. I have built a huge model for both the Lunar and Solar rotations. The Model assumes a stand still fight with no lag and ignores mana. In my model I do 60,000 casts with full rotation. Only Starfall and Trents are excluded. I then ran the model thousands of times to try and find how much additional DPS is gained when you add addtional stats. My results for a lunar rotation fit the typical Hit > Power > Haste > Crit equation and I assumed over 400 haste.

If you haven't seen the posts you can find them here:
Lunar: http://graymatterwow.blogspot.com/2009/ ... model.html\
Solar: http://graymatterwow.blogspot.com/2009/ ... onkin.html

I don't include 2T7 in my model either, but 4T7 must be included in my opinion. 5% crit would have a huge impact on the Diminishing Returns of Crit Rating. And my model assumes about 41% Crit chance. Well within your 40% - 45% range.

(P.S. This has made me realize that there is a small problem with my model when it comes to MF. My model currently assumes that it benifits from 4T7 which is of course wrong. I will correct my model and modify the results, but I do think the impact is small given how infrequently MF is cast and how small the crit damge is from MF with the glyph.)


I've looked at it. Sadly, there seems to be a flaw in my system because it crashes the application if I attempt to view your calculations. I can only open and view the results.

But, the scaling provided by T7 would not apply one the Druid has T8, or when we reach T9 and beyond. Therein is the flaw in using it. The formula cannot be applied to configuring which off-set pieces to use with T8 because it is assuming 5% Crit from T7 which isn't there. I agree that 5% Crit is enough to have an impact on how much of a stat the Druid should get, but this isn't an amount that is going to always be there. As soon as the Druid gets two pieces of T8, they lose that 5% Crit and whatever impact it held on scaling.
Graylo wrote:

Maybe I'm missunderstanding your point, but 2T8 has more of an impact on the value of crit then just being close to the cap or possibly over. I don't think anyone can get to 55% crit chance to be crit capped with eclipse, but you don't have to get to that point for there to be an impact. The Diminishing returns of Stats shows that getting another percent of Crit Chance has little impact on DPS when you already have 90%.

I'm confused on what your point is here.

The value of haste comes reduced cast times and being able to cast an additional spell within an allotted amount of time whether it is affected by Eclipse or not.


The point on the value of Crit not diminishing from 2 piece T8 is because of the point on Haste. With 0 Haste, a Druid can get no more than 6 Starfire casts in during an Eclipse proc. You would have to have enough Haste to reduce Starfire to a 2.13 cast time while Nature's Grace is up to increase this to 7 and a cast time of 1.87 to get 8 Starfires. For 2.13 (with Nature's Grace) you only need 4% Haste or 132 Rating. In order to get to 1.87 Starfire cast time (while Nature's Grace is up of course) you need to have full raid buffs and 20% Haste or 656 Rating. Variables in between 132 and 656 Haste are not really going to effect Eclipse's DPS because they don't allow for any additional casts within the given time frame. Essentially, it could be said that, for Eclipse, all Haste between 132 and 656 scales at 0. Obviously this isn't going to be true in practice, but it is true in theory. However, Crit will always have some form of scaling value, no matter how small, until you reach 55% Crit chance.

There are other considerations of course - other certain variables of Haste are going to be worth more than others due to how they interact with Potions of Speed, Heroism, and other mass Haste effects. The scaling of Haste, when considering Eclipse, is a very wavy line

Graylo wrote:
First, I'm not saying that you won't see a significant drop in the value of haste when you go from 390 to 410 Haste rating. I completely agree that the Haste cap has an impact on the value of haste in a lunar rotation because we do use Wrath and instants in the rotation. However, the way you are presenting it is incredibly miss leading for a couple of reasons.

1. Your numbers are comparing 9% haste from gear to 15% haste from gear. That's a 197 swing in Haste rating. Go and change any of the stats by 197 and leave all of the other stats constant. You will see a big swing in the value of the stat due to diminishing returns.

2. Wrath was the only spell for which you reduced the haste rate. So, you've got 3 spells using one set of stats, and a 4th spell using another set of stats. That is going to change your results in an inaccurate way since all spells use the same stats, except when they are modified by talents.


1. It wouldn't be that drastic though. I think you are over compensating the DR on stats. In the terms of generally gearing, outside of other parameters (such as the cap on Wrath) most players won't really reach a significant point in their stat gains where it grossly effects scaling unless they are doing something wrong from the start. Stats don't just have DR, but increasing one also increases the value of others. I hate to keep going back to past times - but we saw this perfectly in TBC. Before Haste was released, and even then it took a while to become a useful stat, Druids could really do nothing but stack Spell Power. So, most just kept stacking Spell Power, but as Spell Power increased over Haste, the value of Haste went up to the point where Druids could get to a 1:1 ratio. Unless a Druid is completely avoiding one stat, it's unlikely that they'll ever see a significant deviation from the values. Again though, I am going to go back, probably tomorrow since I'm finally off work, and add an additional 10% Crit and report those numbers.

2. This wouldn't have any effect on Haste scaling after 400 though, which is the only place you are taking issue. It would actually just serve to increase the value of Haste below 400 and make the disparity wider.

Graylo wrote:
Yea, it is minor, but here is my genereral understanding of how Damage modifiers work.

Global Modifiers that affect all spells like Earth and Moon and Master Shapeshifter are multiplicative.

Spell Modifiers that affect only a few spells like, Moonfury, Imp MF, and Glyphs are addative.

I haven't tested it myself, but I would think it odd that Imp IS was the only exception to this pattern.


I believe the T5 set bonus was also multiplicative was it not? If it was, then I would think this would behave the same way.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:19 pm  
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Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:13 pm
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I've written this damn post a couple of times and lost it due to my account timing out and other such issues. So please pardon me if it seems fairly brief, or not as through as I usually am.

Including set bonuses in the calculations: I get your point. They're not going to be there forever, so it is a little misleading to make calcuations based upon them. I agree and disagree with your point. Including an older set bonus over a newer one can shift the results in a way that is misleading. My original assumption was that 4T7 and 2T8 would shift the results in similar ways and therefore not significantly impact the overall results.

Including the old set bonus over the newer ones was probably a mistake but excluding set bonues all togeather is probably just as big of a mistake. I also still think that excluding Eclipse from your calculations shifts your results more then you would expect.

Finally, I've reran my comparison of the DPS stats 4 times (No Tier, 4T7, 2T8, 2T8+4T8). Here are the results:

No Tier: SP = 1, Haste = 0.8193, Crit = 0.6525
4T7: SP = 1, Haste = 0.8077, Crit = 0.6274
2T8: SP = 1, Haste = 0.7915, Crit = 0.6333
4T8: SP = 1, Haste = 0.7092, Crit = 0.6389

My results say that Crit is most valueable when you don't include any of the set bonuses but to be honest all of the values are fairly close and might be within the margin of error. I think the true value of this infor is the comparison of Haste and Crit. Crit is behind in all four comparisons. Therefore I still feel like there is an error in your original calcuations with regards the value of Crit relative to Haste.

On a side note: I was a little shocked by my 4T8 results. I new that 4T8 would devalue Haste, but I didn't expect it to be by quite so much.

I will try and post a smaller model up on file front so that it doesn't blow up people's computers.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:09 pm  
Boomkin
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When I do napkin math, it tends to agree with Graylo. Simulationcraft (SC), which I respect, shows crit>haste in t8 bis (they do use an on-use haste trinket though).

Another difference between Graylo's simulation and SC is that SC models a delay between each cast. If you have this kind of latency, haste gets devalued. Add 0.15s between every cast and haste loses roughly 9% of its effectiveness. Crit loses nothing (except in rare cases where latency pushes a cast out of Nature's Grace).

Lower Graylo's 4t8 haste number by 9% and it becomes almost equal to his crit number (so close that moving a talent point from Intensity to Genesis would have a bigger DPS impact than moving 200 crit to 200 haste).

You can argue that 0.15s is too much and you might be right. Try your Eclipse rotation on a target dummy and let us know how you do.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:59 pm  
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KFC
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:26 pm
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Simple update worth changing to the OP:

Spirit - 0.876283192 * (15/100) = 0.131442479

Change to:

Spirit - 0.876283192 * (30/100) = 0.262884958

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:33 am  
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Badgekin
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:13 pm
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Erdluf wrote:
When I do napkin math, it tends to agree with Graylo. Simulationcraft (SC), which I respect, shows crit>haste in t8 bis (they do use an on-use haste trinket though).

Another difference between Graylo's simulation and SC is that SC models a delay between each cast. If you have this kind of latency, haste gets devalued. Add 0.15s between every cast and haste loses roughly 9% of its effectiveness. Crit loses nothing (except in rare cases where latency pushes a cast out of Nature's Grace).

Lower Graylo's 4t8 haste number by 9% and it becomes almost equal to his crit number (so close that moving a talent point from Intensity to Genesis would have a bigger DPS impact than moving 200 crit to 200 haste).

You can argue that 0.15s is too much and you might be right. Try your Eclipse rotation on a target dummy and let us know how you do.


I haven't put lag into my model yet, but I do see how it would diminish the value of Haste. However, I do want to say that my numbers assume T7 levels of Haste. Which we know isn't going to be the case with BIS Ulduar gear. On the flip side Crit will actually go up. My BIS list would put my Crit rating some where around 43% if I remember correcly. All of this combined and the exclusion of a haste trinket I think Haste will still be rated higher then Crit.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:50 pm  
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Crit-chicken
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Sigh, I need to lock you two in a closet for a few hours, from what I have seen on TV 3 things might happen

1. You will solve your differences
2. Kill each other
3. Start making out

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:13 am  
Spamkin
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^ this

^_^v

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:30 am  
Godkin
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 8:40 am
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Naturi wrote:
Sigh, I need to lock you two in a closet for a few hours, from what I have seen on TV 3 things might happen

1. You will solve your differences
2. Kill each other
3. Start making out

1 then 3 then 2

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:16 am  
Pewpewpoultry
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:42 pm
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Murmurs what's the dps difference between Flare of the Heavens and Eye of the Broodmother?


Eye = 87 Crit Rating / 25 SP stacking up to 5 times.
Flare = 120 Crit Rating / 850SP for 10 seconds (Proc)


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:48 am  
Godkin
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Without doing too much math, Flare is slightly better on average -- it provides ~189 SP averaged over the entirety of a fight, versus 125 SP over an entire fight. The difference is that Eye is truly always there. With Flare, you're looking at luck -- will it proc during Eclipse? During Heroism?

I'd list Eye as good with Flare as an acceptable upgrade, but not an essential upgrade.

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