Graylo wrote:

First of all, I don't know if you've seen the results of my model. I have built a huge model for both the Lunar and Solar rotations. The Model assumes a stand still fight with no lag and ignores mana. In my model I do 60,000 casts with full rotation. Only Starfall and Trents are excluded. I then ran the model thousands of times to try and find how much additional DPS is gained when you add addtional stats. My results for a lunar rotation fit the typical Hit > Power > Haste > Crit equation and I assumed over 400 haste.

If you haven't seen the posts you can find them here:

Lunar:

http://graymatterwow.blogspot.com/2009/ ... model.html\

Solar:

http://graymatterwow.blogspot.com/2009/ ... onkin.htmlI don't include 2T7 in my model either, but 4T7 must be included in my opinion. 5% crit would have a huge impact on the Diminishing Returns of Crit Rating. And my model assumes about 41% Crit chance. Well within your 40% - 45% range.

(P.S. This has made me realize that there is a small problem with my model when it comes to MF. My model currently assumes that it benifits from 4T7 which is of course wrong. I will correct my model and modify the results, but I do think the impact is small given how infrequently MF is cast and how small the crit damge is from MF with the glyph.)

I've looked at it. Sadly, there seems to be a flaw in my system because it crashes the application if I attempt to view your calculations. I can only open and view the results.

But, the scaling provided by T7 would not apply one the Druid has T8, or when we reach T9 and beyond. Therein is the flaw in using it. The formula cannot be applied to configuring which off-set pieces to use with T8 because it is assuming 5% Crit from T7 which isn't there. I agree that 5% Crit is enough to have an impact on how much of a stat the Druid should get, but this isn't an amount that is going to always be there. As soon as the Druid gets two pieces of T8, they lose that 5% Crit and whatever impact it held on scaling.

Graylo wrote:

Maybe I'm missunderstanding your point, but 2T8 has more of an impact on the value of crit then just being close to the cap or possibly over. I don't think anyone can get to 55% crit chance to be crit capped with eclipse, but you don't have to get to that point for there to be an impact. The Diminishing returns of Stats shows that getting another percent of Crit Chance has little impact on DPS when you already have 90%.

I'm confused on what your point is here.

The value of haste comes reduced cast times and being able to cast an additional spell within an allotted amount of time whether it is affected by Eclipse or not.

The point on the value of Crit not diminishing from 2 piece T8 is because of the point on Haste. With 0 Haste, a Druid can get no more than 6 Starfire casts in during an Eclipse proc. You would have to have enough Haste to reduce Starfire to a 2.13 cast time while Nature's Grace is up to increase this to 7 and a cast time of 1.87 to get 8 Starfires. For 2.13 (with Nature's Grace) you only need 4% Haste or 132 Rating. In order to get to 1.87 Starfire cast time (while Nature's Grace is up of course) you need to have full raid buffs and 20% Haste or 656 Rating. Variables in between 132 and 656 Haste are not really going to effect Eclipse's DPS because they don't allow for any additional casts within the given time frame. Essentially, it could be said that, for Eclipse, all Haste between 132 and 656 scales at 0. Obviously this isn't going to be true in practice, but it is true in theory. However, Crit will always have some form of scaling value, no matter how small, until you reach 55% Crit chance.

There are other considerations of course - other certain variables of Haste are going to be worth more than others due to how they interact with Potions of Speed, Heroism, and other mass Haste effects. The scaling of Haste, when considering Eclipse, is a very wavy line

Graylo wrote:

First, I'm not saying that you won't see a significant drop in the value of haste when you go from 390 to 410 Haste rating. I completely agree that the Haste cap has an impact on the value of haste in a lunar rotation because we do use Wrath and instants in the rotation. However, the way you are presenting it is incredibly miss leading for a couple of reasons.

1. Your numbers are comparing 9% haste from gear to 15% haste from gear. That's a 197 swing in Haste rating. Go and change any of the stats by 197 and leave all of the other stats constant. You will see a big swing in the value of the stat due to diminishing returns.

2. Wrath was the only spell for which you reduced the haste rate. So, you've got 3 spells using one set of stats, and a 4th spell using another set of stats. That is going to change your results in an inaccurate way since all spells use the same stats, except when they are modified by talents.

1. It wouldn't be that drastic though. I think you are over compensating the DR on stats. In the terms of generally gearing, outside of other parameters (such as the cap on Wrath) most players won't really reach a significant point in their stat gains where it grossly effects scaling unless they are doing something wrong from the start. Stats don't just have DR, but increasing one also increases the value of others. I hate to keep going back to past times - but we saw this perfectly in TBC. Before Haste was released, and even then it took a while to become a useful stat, Druids could really do nothing but stack Spell Power. So, most just kept stacking Spell Power, but as Spell Power increased over Haste, the value of Haste went up to the point where Druids could get to a 1:1 ratio. Unless a Druid is completely avoiding one stat, it's unlikely that they'll ever see a significant deviation from the values. Again though, I am going to go back, probably tomorrow since I'm finally off work, and add an additional 10% Crit and report those numbers.

2. This wouldn't have any effect on Haste scaling after 400 though, which is the only place you are taking issue. It would actually just serve to increase the value of Haste below 400 and make the disparity wider.

Graylo wrote:

Yea, it is minor, but here is my genereral understanding of how Damage modifiers work.

Global Modifiers that affect all spells like Earth and Moon and Master Shapeshifter are multiplicative.

Spell Modifiers that affect only a few spells like, Moonfury, Imp MF, and Glyphs are addative.

I haven't tested it myself, but I would think it odd that Imp IS was the only exception to this pattern.

I believe the T5 set bonus was also multiplicative was it not? If it was, then I would think this would behave the same way.