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 Post subject: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 12:03 am  
Boomkin
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This post is merely the end result of my calculations on how each stat effects the scaling of various spells and rotations, for the complete math, please see viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2394


Lunar Rotation Scaling

Percent of Damage:
Insect Swarm: 12%
Moonfire: 10%
Starfire: 50%
Wrath: 25%
Starfall, Force of Nature, proc effects: 3% (ignored due to complications)

Spell Power - (0.14957948 * .12) + (.10524679 * .10) + (1.1023188 * .50) + (1.1865983 * .25) = 0.876283192

Haste (Before 400) - (0.0113592254 * .12) + (0.00841851174 * .10) + (1.05240836 * .50) + (1.05686234. * .25) = 0.792624723

Haste (After 400) - (0.0113592254 * .12) + (0.00841851174 * .10) + (1.05240836 * .50) + (0.411537562 * .25) = 0.631293529

Crit - (0 * .12) + (0 * .10) + (0.878345459 * .50) + (1.05686234 * .25) = 0.703388314

Spirit - 0.876283192 * (15/100) = 0.131442479

Intellect - (0.275459945 * 0.703388314) + (0.876283192 * (12/100) = 0.298909289

Okay, so, I know what people are thinking "What!? Crit is so not better than Haste for a Lunar Eclipse rotation! You've done something wrong!" Well, I may have done something wrong, but I don't really think I have, and, if anything, I favored Haste more than Crit in my calculations. The out come isn't all that odd though, and does make some sense. Haste is far better than Crit is when casting Starfire, there is no doubting that, however Haste is essentially worthless for Wrath at this point. However, and here's the fun part, the more Crit you get, the lower a percentage Wrath is going to take up in your rotation, thus increasing the portion of Starfire and netting more gain from Haste. I looked at a wide variety of DPS reports in order to construct these percentages, and I'm quite confident that they are accurate. As I recall, the highest Starfire percentage I saw was from a Druid on Hodir where he had 60% Starfire, and 27% Wrath - although he didn't use Starfall nor Force of Nature (which I thought was odd.)

Do not read this as me saying, or even the data suggesting, that Druids using a Lunar Rotation go out and stack crit and toss out all of their Haste. That isn't the case. Druid should always stack to 400 Haste before anything no matter what rotation they are going to use (and these numbers assume that you already have Wrath Haste capped) - at that point you probably want to focus on getting Crit. Trinkets that have an on-use Haste effect (Haste procs too, although be warry of those as a proc during Wrath spam is sadness and you'd get more out of Crit or Spell Power procs then) and Potions of Speed are still your friend. As is Power Infusion.

Solar Rotation Scaling

Coming soon!

Sorry, but I don't run with a Solar Rotation, and I couldn't find any parses from Druids which indicated they were using a Solar Rotation, so I wasn't able to construct a percentage break down for this rotation. I'll keep looking, and if people that run with a Solar Rotation would post some of their reports that would be dandy.


Last edited by Murmurs on Tue May 05, 2009 11:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 12:33 am  
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Crit-chicken
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Very interesting, though I am a bit disappointed you did not factor in Int and Sprit since they affect Crit,Haste and SP. Mmm might be time to rearrange my BIS list :P

So you numbers are saying after 400 haste, to forget about it and go for crit gear?

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 1:36 am  
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Naturi wrote:
Very interesting, though I am a bit disappointed you did not factor in Int and Sprit since they affect Crit,Haste and SP. Mmm might be time to rearrange my BIS list :P

So you numbers are saying after 400 haste, to forget about it and go for crit gear?


Spirit is merely a fraction of Spell Power. Essentially, each point of Spirit is worth 15/100 of Spell Power. So it ends up being

0.876283192 * (15/100) = 0.131442479

Intellect is a bit more tricky, but follows the same concept. It takes 166.6667 Intellect to gain 1% of Critical Strike, or 45.91 Critical Strike Rating. Therefore each point of Intellect is worth 0.275459945 Critical Strike Rating. Similar to Spirit, each point of Intellect is worth 12/100 of a point of Spell Power, so Intellect would be weighted like this

(0.275459945 * 0.703388314) + (0.876283192 * (12/100) = 0.298909289

I know there's a way to build Kings into the equation as well, but it's late for me and my mind is slipping, so that will have to do for now.


They are and they aren't. You see, Graylo did his calculations that Starfire was 75% of total damage and that Wrath was 25% of total damage. This is good for a quick look, predominately because taking DoTs into account really only hinders Crit and Haste more than anything, but the reality is that this is unrealistic for what Druids are actually getting in terms of damage. I don't think I saw a single parse wherein a Druid using an Eclipse cycle had Starfire accounting for even 70% of their damage, but even using a 75/25 set up, Haste doesn't over take Crit:

Haste - (1.05240836 * .75) + (0.411537562 * .25) = 0.89219066

Crit - (0.878345459 * .75) + (1.05686234 * .25) = 0.922974679

This is simply because Haste is so terrible for Wrath at that point. The only way to cause Haste to scale better than Crit is to reduce the fraction of the rotation that Wrath makes up, but this can only be done by stacking Crit. If you can transfer 10% of your Wrath percentage into Starfire's, then Haste will overtake Crit:

Haste - (0.0113592254 * .12) + (0.00841851174 * .10) + (1.05240836 * .65) + (0.411537562 * .15) = 0.748001027

Crit - (0 * .12) + (0 * .10) + (0.878345459 * .65) + (1.05686234 * .15) = 0.703388314 = 0.729453899

The issue with stacking Haste over Crit is really that Wrath gets so very little from it. However, keep in mind that this is theorycrafting and not actual game play, and the two don't often agree with each other. It isn't likely that you're going to be spamming very many Wrath's under the effect of Nature's Grace when trying to proc Eclipse, in which case the value of Haste for Wrath should remain close to the same 1.05 that Starfire has. But, really, it all depends. If your cast sequence for wrath goes Crit - nonCrit - nonCrit - Crit - nonCrit - nonCrit - Crit - Eclipse then the value of Crit and Haste should be weighted as shown. If, however, your cast sequence goes nonCrit - nonCrit - nonCrit - nonCrit - nonCrit - Crit - Crit - Eclipse then Haste is going to have an increased value.

The values we're speaking of here really aren't significant though - merely a .07 difference between the two. So, when comparing things like Belt of the Living Thicket and Flamewrought Cinch the difference is a meager 3.3 DPS in favor of the Crit piece - although Graylo's list only favors the Haste item by 7 DPS. It's unlikely that anyone is going to see a drastic difference in DPS by stacking one stat over the other, especially when you consider that this is generally only applicable to probably around 3 pieces as you need to have 400 Haste before this even comes into consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:50 am  
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Well your calculations are based on a percental increase of Haste and Crit - 1% Crit ends up in more DPS gain than 1% Haste, but while 1% Crit needs 45.91 rating (as you said above) 1% Haste only needs 32,79 rating. So based on ratings, I still think that Haste is > Crit.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 10:27 am  
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I run with a solar rotation on most bosses. Check out The Seventh Circle's Logs.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 5:33 pm  
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Arániko wrote:
Well your calculations are based on a percental increase of Haste and Crit - 1% Crit ends up in more DPS gain than 1% Haste, but while 1% Crit needs 45.91 rating (as you said above) 1% Haste only needs 32,79 rating. So based on ratings, I still think that Haste is > Crit.


Then you think wrong.

If you read the math, you'll see that all variables calculating Crit are divided by 45.91 while all variables calculating Haste are divided by 32.79.

The information you see there is not the DPS gain per %, it is the DPS gain per point.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 7:17 pm  
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It looks like the change to Improved Moonkin Form to increase the Spirit conversion from 15% to 30% is now on the PTR. This will, obviously, change the scaling value of Spirit. I will list that value here if people wish to go ahead and use the data, however I will not put it into the main post until the change has gone Live on the chance that this change does not go through.

Spirit - 0.876283192 * (30/100) = 0.262884958


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 7:53 pm  
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Relevart wrote:
I run with a solar rotation on most bosses. Check out The Seventh Circle's Logs.



Thank you.

It's a little difficult to parse through a lot of the encounters since there are lots of fights which have to be thrown out - XT (Light Bomb damage skews results) Freya, Auiraya, Thorim, Razorscale, and a few others (ones where Hurricane was used essentially.)

Overall, I'm thinking most Solar Rotations seem to have an average break down of - 46% (Wrath) 32% (Starfire) 11% (Insect Swarm) 7% (Moonfire) 4% (Starfall)

Although, I'm curious, Force of Nature doesn't seemed to be parsed anywhere on those logs. Do you not use/have the spell or does this particular site not parse it in with your damage? Or, perhaps I'm just not using it correctly to have pet damage added in.

Another question, do you fill your Eclipse down time with Wrath or with Starfire? It's rather difficult to tell for sure, since you rightfully use Starfire during Heroism, so that skews the data a little.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 8:36 pm  
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So, do you feel there will be a haste cap for Lunar casters? Or will it be try to keep Haste and Crit even now? The set I have in mind puts me at about 600 haste

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 10:03 pm  
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There isn't a haste cap per say, but the value of Haste does drop significantly after 400 due to Wrath having any portion within your rotation.

When gearing for a Lunar Rotation, I would venture to guess that those pieces with the highest amounts of Spell Power and then Crit/Haste are going to be the most optimal. The only time you'd need to choose is if a piece either has equal amounts of all of them. In this case, I would say that the Crit item would be better - not just from a raw DPS stand point, but also from a better chance of getting Eclipse up.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 10:14 pm  
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Alrighty! Thanks for the clarification <3

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 11:39 pm  
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Murmurs can I have your babies? Please! Also would the change in the amount of SP change much?

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:56 am  
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Murmurs wrote:
Relevart wrote:
I run with a solar rotation on most bosses. Check out The Seventh Circle's Logs.



Thank you.

It's a little difficult to parse through a lot of the encounters since there are lots of fights which have to be thrown out - XT (Light Bomb damage skews results) Freya, Auiraya, Thorim, Razorscale, and a few others (ones where Hurricane was used essentially.)

Overall, I'm thinking most Solar Rotations seem to have an average break down of - 46% (Wrath) 32% (Starfire) 11% (Insect Swarm) 7% (Moonfire) 4% (Starfall)

Although, I'm curious, Force of Nature doesn't seemed to be parsed anywhere on those logs. Do you not use/have the spell or does this particular site not parse it in with your damage? Or, perhaps I'm just not using it correctly to have pet damage added in.

Another question, do you fill your Eclipse down time with Wrath or with Starfire? It's rather difficult to tell for sure, since you rightfully use Starfire during Heroism, so that skews the data a little.


I almost feel sorry for you looking at those logs. It's 50/50 on whether Force of Nature gets parsed correctly. I use it at the beginning of every fight or right before bloodlust.

As for my filler, I have been experimenting as to which works best. Lately I've been trying to fill more with wrath but the earlier logs were almost certainly filled with starfire as I was slowly breaking away from my lunar habits.

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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 1:57 am  
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Naturi wrote:
Murmurs can I have your babies? Please! Also would the change in the amount of SP change much?


Changing Spell Power does change how each stat is valued (as does changing Haste and Crit for that matter) but I didn't find any significant amounts which would cause shifts in gearing such as what we saw back in T6 with haste and Spell Power being 1:1 at any obtainable gear level.

Quote:
Alrighty! Thanks for the clarification <3


My pleasure, it's what I'm here for.



Quote:
I almost feel sorry for you looking at those logs. It's 50/50 on whether Force of Nature gets parsed correctly. I use it at the beginning of every fight or right before bloodlust.

As for my filler, I have been experimenting as to which works best. Lately I've been trying to fill more with wrath but the earlier logs were almost certainly filled with starfire as I was slowly breaking away from my lunar habits.


I figured that it was merely just not parsing it correctly, but you have to ask because sometimes you never know.

Hmm, I can't honestly say which would be the best filler. There are pros and cons for both, so it's a rather tough call in my opinion. With a Solar Rotation, I'd imagine that your Haste shouldn't ever be significantly over 400, so the one fact that allows Starfire to out-scale Wrath is rendered moot. With enough Crit, Wrath should perform just a hair better than Starfire, so, especially with the Idol, I'd say it's probably the filler of choice. Then again, Wrath doesn't scale enough to out DPS the effects of the Starfire Glyph, so I guess that would take priority.

Edit - I know I stated that getting 70% or higher Starfire damage was neigh impossible, but I did it....on Patchwerk. It only took, two Power Infusions, a Haste Pot, a double Lunar Eclipse during Heroism, and some really good RNG, but I got to 70.2% Starfire damage and had around 12.3% Wrath damage. On most others, I was barely over 50%. Oh yeah, and I used Starfall twice after Lunar Eclipses to get 100% Nature's Grace up time during Starfire spam.


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 Post subject: Re: Balance Druid Stat Weight
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:46 am  
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Oh, where was my mind >.< I'm sorry Murmurs!


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