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 Post subject: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:05 am  
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Boomkin
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NEed some help trying to figure out where the damage has gone from live currently.
1. Firstly, which spell co-efficients have changed for MoP? is MoP using the same values as Cata for % damage increase on spells from spell power? In particular has the Wild Mushroom, Starfall, hurricane and moonfire co-efficients changed again?

2. I noticed that wrath/starfire, moonfire have been significantly buffed in damage. I'm trying ot account for the change over Cataclsym. I know the hybrid tax is officially abolished for MoP, altho it was barely noticeable in Cata. So i'm wondering how much of the change in that is baking in damage from previous talents or the loss of insect swarm

We lost:
Insect Swarm [accounting for approx 7% overall damage out put in live?]
4% spell damage from old Master shapeshifter talent
2% spell damage from old Balance of power talent
2% spell damage from Earth and Moon
8% spell damage from Earth and Moon
10% arcane/nature spell damage from Moonfury balance specialisation:
= 26% [note insect swarm lets them take an extra 25% damage]

In addition to those
6% moonfire DD from blessing of the grove
10% intellect from old HotW resto tree
4% crit to all spells from Starlight Wrath

spell tooltip comparisons: old to current beta build
Moonfire: from 218/266 to 526/704 and then an additional 2074 to 2534 up from 93*6
initial damage is greatly increased (factor of 2.64 and the dot gone up by a factor of 4.54) but then spell co-efficient was always the importnat one.
Starfire: goes from 1347/1681 to 3406 to 4244 gone up by a factor of 2.52
Wrath goes from 922/1040 to 2409/2714 gone up by a factor fof 2.609
Starsurge gone from 1129/1559 to 2955/4076 gone up by a factor of 2.61
Starfall gone from 409/475 to 550/649 per star gone up by 1.366
Wild mushrrom detonate: gone from 938/1134 down to 292 and 354 per mushrroom 31% of the original damage, a 69% nerf
Hurricane nerfed from 358 to 242

if the spell co-efficienents are still the same. curious to see if WMs co-efficient has changed or hurrricanes seeing that both were nerfed.


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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:01 am  
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Boomkin
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Just saw Erdulfs post over on EJ and copy pasting his findings:

We lost:
Insect Swarm [accounting for approx 7% overall damage out put in live?]
4% spell damage from old Master shapeshifter talent
2% spell damage from old Balance of power talent
2% spell damage from Earth and Moon
8% spell damage from Earth and Moon
10% arcane/nature spell damage from Moonfury balance specialisation:
= 26% [note insect swarm lets them take an extra 25% damage]

In addition to those
6% moonfire DD from blessing of the grove
10% intellect from old HotW resto tree
4% crit to all spells from Starlight Wrath

so, it seems WM is significantly nerfed both in initial damage and co-efficients.

26% gain for most nukes, plus 25% form IS should be about correct to cover the laoss of all the talents listed PLUS the damage contribution of the old Insect Swarm and the hybrid tax.


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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:08 am  
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Boomkin
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From what we're being told, IS is scrapped entirely (thank god) and numbers are actually balanced with that in mind I believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:04 am  
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That's good, the new Insect Swarm idea was going to be both annoying (i.e. for doing stuff like Tendons on Spine, Parasites on Madness, etc) and boring. Glad to see they've dropped that idea. Where are you being told, did I miss a blue post?


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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:42 am  
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Boomkin
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it's just a guess, because we no longer see it in the beta.

our spec is looking more and more bland... insect swarm perhaps in its latest incarnation was boring, but ratehr than do something exciitng with it they dropped it

same with thorns

look at starfall now, it's so boring

starsurge is a useless spell who's function could easily be done by wrath and starfire.

basically you could cut out nearly half the balnce druid arsneal and still do the same thing. I like starsurge, thorns, i like starfall i like insect swarm, or at least i like the idea of htem, what i don't like is them being nearly meaninglesss


i'm sorry but starsurge with no surge is a waste of space, yes i know what it does, but its incomplete without the surge, and as much as eclipse differentiates between starfire and wrath, they'd be much more interesting with secondary effects that reflect the arcane and nature schools they are cast from. like the fire burning for an extra amount on crit or wrath occasinaolly duplicating itself.

why can't insect swarm do something exicintg like spread effects like moonfire auto generate extra mushrooms, make aoes out of single targets or have a conflagarate like function. and Thorns - it hurts you to hurt me could have so many interesting ways of being used.. ah well i guess i should be grateful that eclipse is working smoothly after 2 expansions... i just hope i don't fall asleep hile playing my moonkin.


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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:10 am  
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It's a bit early to say, need more dungeons and different types of fights to get a better picture. But from the first dungeon and toying around with fire + frost specs on my mage alt, in constrast to boomkin, i do hope there are some changes coming to us in the upcoming patches.

(wtb recount/skada :o )


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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:06 am  
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Boomkin
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Tecton wrote:
That's good, the new Insect Swarm idea was going to be both annoying (i.e. for doing stuff like Tendons on Spine, Parasites on Madness, etc) and boring. Glad to see they've dropped that idea. Where are you being told, did I miss a blue post?


Sorry should have been more clear. Pure hearsay, and rumours on the the forums about numbers being balanced atm without it, unless I missed a blue post some where haha. However, Lissanna is pretty certain Insect Swarm not appearing is intended.


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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:51 am  
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Crit-chicken
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Pretty sure a bunch of us have on good authority that it's intended. Besides, there's no reason to think otherwise, other than that amusing bug last time where some people didn't have it on beta (and that just had to do with putting in the new spec system).

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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:25 am  
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Just want to point out that it is a little early to get real concerned about numbers.

At this point the big concerns are: How does the rotation feel? Is this a useful cooldown? Are the talents/glyphs interesting? We are still in the big picture phase of development and DPS is more apart of the detail phase. That doesn't mean it's useless to talk about numbers at this point, but just remember no body has leveled any class to 90 yet, and what the final number turns out to be matters a lot less then how that number relates to other classes.

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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:46 am  
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Right. It's kind of fun to do all the +/- damage accounting but our 5.0 damage at L85 doesn't matter anyway. I figured thinking about helps people get a better understanding of changes in the rotation though.

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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:48 am  
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Starfury wrote:
if the spell co-efficienents are still the same. curious to see if WMs co-efficient has changed or hurrricanes seeing that both were nerfed.


Erdluf already posted some spell co-efficent [/url]stuff on EJ that answers this question (if correct).
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t126893-mis ... ost2119512

According to those number WM is going from 0.603 to 0.349 a drop of 42%. Hurricane is going from 0.095 to 0.262 an increase of 176%

This isn't that surprising since WM was never intended to be an AoE spell, and I doubt blizzard liked the role it took on in Cataclysm. Blizzard has taken several steps to make Hurricane more appealing in MoP.

Starfury wrote:
starsurge is a useless spell who's function could easily be done by wrath and starfire.

basically you could cut out nearly half the balnce druid arsneal and still do the same thing. I like starsurge, thorns, i like starfall i like insect swarm, or at least i like the idea of htem, what i don't like is them being nearly meaninglesss

i'm sorry but starsurge with no surge is a waste of space, yes i know what it does, but its incomplete without the surge, and as much as eclipse differentiates between starfire and wrath, they'd be much more interesting with secondary effects that reflect the arcane and nature schools they are cast from. like the fire burning for an extra amount on crit or wrath occasinaolly duplicating itself.


What's useless about Starsurge? Is it the fact that it has the cast time of Wrath but the DPS of Starfall? Is it the fact that it scales with the DoTs and brings a random element to the moonkin rotation? I really don't see what you could have against Starsurge at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:49 am  
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Hamlet wrote:
Right. It's kind of fun to do all the +/- damage accounting but our 5.0 damage at L85 doesn't matter anyway. I figured thinking about helps people get a better understanding of changes in the rotation though.


True, just trying to keep things in perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:57 pm  
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Graylo wrote:
Just want to point out that it is a little early to get real concerned about numbers.

At this point the big concerns are: How does the rotation feel? Is this a useful cooldown? Are the talents/glyphs interesting? We are still in the big picture phase of development and DPS is more apart of the detail phase. That doesn't mean it's useless to talk about numbers at this point, but just remember no body has leveled any class to 90 yet, and what the final number turns out to be matters a lot less then how that number relates to other classes.

Our single-target rotation feels really good right now on training dummies, and doesn't feel too bad in solo leveling (85 to 86). There are still plenty of things to track and decisions to make, BUT you don't have to fight Blizzard's intended mechanics to be able to do a good job. Right now, if you do it Blizzard's way, your DPS sucks. If you game Eclipse and play a broken rotation (things like solar cleave), then you win.

In MoP, you really feel a drive to push to the next Eclipse (so you can have more double-DOT up time in a single-target rotation). I really like how soul of the forest interacts with the new single-target rotation in helping to push us towards that goal.

In addition, our AOE rotations are more balanced (though now Shrooms seem somewhat out of place since it's a lot more complicated and time-consuming to set up than starfall is for Lunar Eclipse).

I'm somewhat worried about our movement DPS because I really don't feel that moonfire/sunfire spam is an appropriate movement spell. It's a bigger conceptual weakness at this point, IMO. We really shouldn't be resorting to spamming a DOT while moving...

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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:03 pm  
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Starfury wrote:
i just hope i don't fall asleep hile playing my moonkin.


Implying that this is based on the changes made for MoP is ridiculous. When Cataclysm was released I race changed to troll and the most significant change was that I now had one more button to push, every 3 minutes. And it was a breath of fresh air.

If at all, our rotation hasn't changed that much, and despite the fact that I'm still in the no-beta club, from reading and assuming how things work, I'm comfortable with the changes.

Let's face it: Insect Swarm wasn't fun anymore. It was just a debuff we placed on the target so we dealt a bit more damage. But that was pretty much it.

Now, I don't agree with you on the diferentiation of Wrath and Starfire. They're different in the sense that they're from different magic schools and interact with our eclipse bar differently, not to mention the fact that they have different animations. Asking for a burn-like damage component (T10 4p bonus - Languish) or a dot spreader is just mimicking a mage's abilities. If I wanted my char to mimick a mage, I'd roll a mage.

And about the uselessness of Starsurge: I don't mind having a third nuke. It's another button to push. Honestly, I'm not catching your drift here. So, you don't want to fall asleep, but you'd have a third spell, that can proc, has the cast-time of wrath and deals the damage of Starfire baked in Wrath and/or Starsurge? Then you'd have an even simplier rotation, being more prone to fall asleep.

And given the fact that we were given DPS cooldowns, our playstyle will be more interactive/reactive/strategic than before.
I welcome the changes, gladly. I won't discuss numbers yet. Mechanics are meaningful, numbers are easily adjustable anytime during the test phase (or even on live, remember Starsurge on the pre-cata patch).


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 Post subject: Re: Where has the damage gone?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:43 pm  
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Starsurge adds the most random aspect to your rotation, since it breaks up starfire or wrath spam while heading towards a new Eclipse.

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