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 Post subject: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:59 am  
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Just starting some thoughts here, figured I'd drop by here to maybe get more discussion here. Here are some initial thoughts upon reviewing everything:
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t126893-mis ... ost2119110

Short version is that Incarnation and SotF should be quite comparable (also some thoughts in there about how to time Incarnation).

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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:19 pm  
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The new DoT model: looks quite simple, compared to the current "clip at the end of Eclipse if duration left < f(several factors)". However, it could be potentially rewarding to refresh just before entering Eclipse, as long as 18 seconds of an uneclipsed DoT (plus the MF/SuF DD) and the extra SS procs are better than ~8 or so seconds of an eclipsed DoT, 1 GCD of nuking and feedback effects (less NG uptime). The answer will be a function of mastery, and therefore for later tiers we won't clip, but maybe for 5.0 or 5.1 we'll clip sometimes.

I guess the new rotation conundrum is cooldown management.

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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:41 pm  
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Yeah--that's definitely going to be an open question until there's much more detailed model I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:11 pm  
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You should do some math for me on monks. I trust you more than any other site :<

/nudge

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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:19 pm  
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Tuscarora wrote:
The new DoT model: looks quite simple, compared to the current "clip at the end of Eclipse if duration left < f(several factors)". However, it could be potentially rewarding to refresh just before entering Eclipse, as long as 18 seconds of an uneclipsed DoT (plus the MF/SuF DD) and the extra SS procs are better than ~8 or so seconds of an eclipsed DoT, 1 GCD of nuking and feedback effects (less NG uptime). The answer will be a function of mastery, and therefore for later tiers we won't clip, but maybe for 5.0 or 5.1 we'll clip sometimes.

I guess the new rotation conundrum is cooldown management.

Yeah, as soon as I realized we get an uneclipsed sunfire, that was my big question too.

I think incarnation v sotf is going to become more clear once we see what some of the raid fights look like, though. My biggest worry about incarnation is the (potential) loss of NG uptime.

The other thing that's interesting to me is about our casts inside solar. SS gaming inside lunar is done with, since both SF and SS give 20 energy, and it sounds like eclipse transitions are now instant (so no more "tail end" casts). But with solar, it seems like we'd want to make it so you're leaving eclipse with the most amount of extra energy possible.

15x7 = 105, assuming no SS
15x6 + 20x1 = 110, with 1 SS
15x5 + 20x2 = 115 with 2 SS, but one of those SS would have to be the last eclipsed spell you cast, otherwise it doesn't work.
15x4 + 20x3 = I *think* not possible, but willing to be proven wrong here. The best I could come up with was...
15x3 +20x3 = 105, which means 1 fewer cast (though more SS) and ending at lower energy than the other 2 options, and also gambling hard with your SS procs (because the last cast still has to be SS).

So, it seems especially important to save your SS for solar (so possibly holding them in the lunar->solar transition), only casting 2 SS per solar, and making sure your last cast out of solar is a SS.

Thoughts? Mistakes? (I already caught a big one I made and edited :o )

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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:10 am  
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With SS back to 15 sec CD (losing the 4pc bonus) we likely won't get 2 SS per Solar unless we get a stars proc. So I think you could SS once going from Lunar->Solar and then have it up again somewhere in the middle of your Solar Eclipse, which you would then save for your last cast based on your math. In other words I don't think it would be safe to SS early in Solar Eclipse, planning on getting another one by the end. Maybe much later into MoP when our crit gets higher and SS procs became more reliable.


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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:34 am  
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Stommped wrote:
With SS back to 15 sec CD (losing the 4pc bonus) we likely won't get 2 SS per Solar unless we get a stars proc. So I think you could SS once going from Lunar->Solar and then have it up again somewhere in the middle of your Solar Eclipse, which you would then save for your last cast based on your math. In other words I don't think it would be safe to SS early in Solar Eclipse, planning on getting another one by the end. Maybe much later into MoP when our crit gets higher and SS procs became more reliable.

I dunno. I mean, I think you're right that we can't depend on it coming off CD again during eclipse in a normal rotation. But I don't think it's too much of a stretch to expect a proc sometime during the course of solar almost all the time (yes, RNG can screw you). Also, with the low haste that comes with the first tier of an xpac, our eclipse cycles will also be a bit slower, giving things more time to proc.

Not to mention I don't think it's absolutely crazy to consider the possibility that it might actually take us 15s to get through eclipse at the beginning of the tier.

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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:02 pm  
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I'm actually pretty worried about eclipse lasting more than 15s and how DoT refreshing works. If it works like I think it will then we will see a huge benefit from the haste breakpoint where our cast that removes us from eclipse still buffs our sunfire with NG.

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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:41 pm  
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Eluial wrote:
Not to mention I don't think it's absolutely crazy to consider the possibility that it might actually take us 15s to get through eclipse at the beginning of the tier.

7*(Wrath or Starsurge) = 14s at zero haste.
One Sunfire = 1.5s

Total = 15.5s at zero haste. However, even if naked, you will have NG. 15.5/1.15 = 13.49s. Unless you have to move, get pushback, or use some cooldown, you won't have a 15s Solar Eclipse on a single target fight.


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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:04 pm  
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Erdluf wrote:
Eluial wrote:
Not to mention I don't think it's absolutely crazy to consider the possibility that it might actually take us 15s to get through eclipse at the beginning of the tier.

7*(Wrath or Starsurge) = 14s at zero haste.
One Sunfire = 1.5s

Total = 15.5s at zero haste. However, even if naked, you will have NG. 15.5/1.15 = 13.49s. Unless you have to move, get pushback, or use some cooldown, you won't have a 15s Solar Eclipse on a single target fight.

Good call :P

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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:21 pm  
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Without movement, NG will outlast Eclipse, as you guys said. If you have to move during Eclipse, you will get stuck with a dangling un-NG DoT, but I guess that's just one of the penalties of movement (might be more of an issue on the Solar side where you have to wait out the W travel time).

e: Eluial, I was just looking into something similar here:
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t126893-mis ... ost2120208

The ideal case is to have 5W and an SS as your first 6 casts (95 energy), and then 2SS + 3W to hit Lunar (assuming SotF). Basically if you hold an SS for the start of Solar each time, you have to hit 2 procs (or proc+Euphoria) during your next 9 casts to shorten your cycle by one spell.

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Last edited by Hamlet on Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:23 pm  
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Foofy wrote:
You should do some math for me on monks. I trust you more than any other site :<

/nudge


So, funny story, an EJ mod accidentally deleted the nascent Monk DPS thread, but here's a c/p of a post I just made that was still in Notepad:

Quote:
So energy per second = 10(1+haste)
Jabs per second = EPS/40. Jab damage can be computed independently of anything else (putting aside how to deal with Muscle memory).
Chi per second = EPS/40*(total hit).
Find finisher with best damage per chi (possible capping due to cooldown as Aldriana mentioned). Finisher damage can be computed independently of anything else from the looks of it.
Free Blackout Kicks per second = EPS/40*(total hit)*(proc rate) (Flag potential Blackout Kick capping issue although seems unlikely with current numbers)
White DPS independent of everything, just have to compute Tiger Strikes uptime.

[so]Okay, spreadsheet done.[/so] No, this has to be pretty unfinished, everything about the rotation is totally static. And I'm pretty sure it is unfinished since they've closed off L85 Monk premades for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:29 pm  
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Hamlet wrote:
Foofy wrote:
You should do some math for me on monks. I trust you more than any other site :<

/nudge


So, funny story, an EJ mod accidentally deleted the nascent Monk DPS thread, but here's a c/p of a post I just made that was still in Notepad:

Quote:
So energy per second = 10(1+haste)
Jabs per second = EPS/40. Jab damage can be computed independently of anything else (putting aside how to deal with Muscle memory).
Chi per second = EPS/40*(total hit).
Find finisher with best damage per chi (possible capping due to cooldown as Aldriana mentioned). Finisher damage can be computed independently of anything else from the looks of it.
Free Blackout Kicks per second = EPS/40*(total hit)*(proc rate) (Flag potential Blackout Kick capping issue although seems unlikely with current numbers)
White DPS independent of everything, just have to compute Tiger Strikes uptime.

[so]Okay, spreadsheet done.[/so] No, this has to be pretty unfinished, everything about the rotation is totally static. And I'm pretty sure it is unfinished since they've closed off L85 Monk premades for now.

Yeah, I saw that. I was mid click and it was like "THREAD NOT FOUND" I was all D:!!!!

Mainly looking for Healing Monk stuff though. EJ needs to speed it up with discussion ><!

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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:40 pm  
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It's hard to do much with Monks yet, premades aren't open (they were accidentally open briefly, but those 85 Monks are stuck and can't do much for now anyway except for look at the abilities).

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 Post subject: Re: Maths of Pandaria
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:13 pm  
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Hamlet wrote:
It's hard to do much with Monks yet, premades aren't open (they were accidentally open briefly, but those 85 Monks are stuck and can't do much for now anyway except for look at the abilities).

Yeah, I know. I'm just sitting here theorizing about monks and what nerfs will be coming at them. But I'm going to bail on this topic since this is TMR. However, you can join me at swiftrejuvenation.net with monk discussion! Would love to steal your knowledge as it comes :)

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